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Bindings.. why do we split at the tail? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9179	Page 1 of 2

Author:	martinedwards [ Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:15 pm ]
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OK, after a few bound builds I've spotted a congenital flaw with using standard bindings. In ALL of the 6 bound builds I've done (wow is it really six?!!) the binding has sprung a little at the tail. maybe only a cm, but enough to need a drop of CA and a clamp. Now I appreciate that I'm being driven by Stewmac's binding lengths. they are long enough for 1/2 a top. This in turn is probably driven by the postal service having a price band that limits the length of parcels which MAKES stewmac and all the others cut the binding to the industry standard 1/2 a top length. For a change ( ) I have bucked the trend. I'm making a guitar for a collegues son. It's an oak back & sides, sitka combo. and I bound it in walnut that had in the store from my last dumpster diving escapade. I cut it long enough to do a full lap of the top and back. so now that it's on........ Is there any reason that this would be a bad idea??

Author:	Pwoolson [ Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:40 pm ]
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In my eyes, the only drawback is bending them, which I assume you did by hand on a pipe. It would be pretty hard to get a full sized binding in a Fox style bender.

Author:	Don Williams [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:42 am ]
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If you're using plastic bindings, there are aome available that are long enough to go all the way around. You could also make your own wood bindings to do the same, but as Paul eludes to, you have to bend them to shape, and that can be tricky. I've used some maple that was supple enough to bend easily when steamed a bit, and getting it to follow the contours of a guitar was relatively easy. But you can't do that with ebony or some other woods. Perhaps you could come up with an outside form heated with blankets or something to bend a full-length wood binding around it. Maybe if it was aluminim with some carefully placed ceramic heaters inside, that would do the trick. Awfully expesnive though... Don Williams39027.4051273148

Author:	LanceK [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:49 am ]
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I agree with Don and Paul, although it would be nice not to have that join at the butt to worry about, bending a full size would be mighty hard. LanceK39027.4098148148

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:46 am ]
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Yep. Bending is the issue. I do not use plastic bindings but as far as wood is concerned it would be tough to bend a full guitar and it would be tough to fit up as well. Even using titebond it would be tough to fit up prior to the glue starting to set. I have use full length purfling many times but I have to say I really don't find it to be that big of a benefit, as I like to prebend my purflings as well

Author:	Sam Price [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:55 am ]
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I can't imagine using a whole legnth of binding at once. For a start, I like to have a breather between sides to assess how it's glueing. I'll stick to half legnths. Sam Price39027.4972916667

Author:	martinedwards [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:08 am ]
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well, my wallpaper stripper did the job without any probs

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:22 am ]
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Meaning you bent your bindings using a wallpaper stripier? If so you will have to explain your technique. As the wallpaper strippers I have use have been light steam units. Not enough heat I would think and would swell the wood.

Author:	Sam Price [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:32 am ]
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Awwww no, not again!! puts tin helmet on and laughs manicallySam Price39027.5231134259

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:36 am ]
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???? Have you heard this process before Sam?MichaelP39027.5257291667

Author:	Sam Price [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:40 am ]
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Uhhhhhhh trembles........Martin? Sam Price39027.5291898148

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:44 am ]
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Sam I am totally lost. I though I asked a reasonable question

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:01 am ]
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Ok! I give up appantly there is a punch line but I don't know it. If this is a true process I would love to know but if this is a joke I could care less.

Author:	Sam Price [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:06 am ]
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I'm very sorry Michael: The use of a wallpaper steam stripper was suggested as a bending technique and endorsed by us in another forum... I used it myself for Rosewood bindings with a great degree of success, by running the steam over dampened wood wrapped in foil, and for some bizzarre reason, resulted in someone really having a go at us for being so unprofessional. Ouch, I am still wincing now..gotta go and get meself some tough skin... All I can say is thank God for the patience of the Professional Luthiers on this forum. Sam Price39027.5507407407

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:56 am ]
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Thanks Sam, I apparently missed that thread. I do have to say I am a bit surprised that the steamer would generate enough heat. Do you recall the topic and I will search the archives to catch upMichaelP39027.5813888889

Author:	martinedwards [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:42 am ]
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yup, Sam's right. There is another forum, hosted by a magazine, where an extremely knowledgeable and respected luthier went rather over the top in slamming those of us who don't use a fox bender or a hot pipe for bending wood. I'm a "wing it" type person. and just because no-one else does it, is no reason for me not to think outside the box and have a go myself. My thinking goes along the line of "bending wood takes heat and damp. A wallpaper stripper provides these. I have one already. That's $350 cheaper than buying one from the US and having it shipped over. lets try it" As I got a load of walnut for free I had nothing to loose and a load to gain........ steam the wood till it's hot & floppy bung it in a mould till it isn't hot & floppy anymore....... I've used it to bend Oak & walnut sides and rosewood and walnut bindings. the bindings I just get hot and floppy, glue the step and work from the tail to the neck taping into place as I go. (working fairly quickly it must be said). next morning off comes the tape and it's scraping time. works OK...... but I'm going to rig a pipe and a heat gun for the maple sides I've just bought.........

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:50 am ]
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I am assuming that this caused the wood to swell some. Did you allow everything to dehydrate prior to flush the binding and sides to each other. I am still amazed that the steamer got the wood hot enough but I do not know what your steam source is.

Author:	martinedwards [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:09 am ]
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Steam source is the square electric kettle thingy in the background. as for swelling, Maybe I'm lucky, but never had any problems, I just wipe off excess moisture with a paper towel before I start taping them in.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:22 am ]
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How long is the binding plyable?

Author:	Serge Poirier [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:18 am ]
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Well Martin and Sam, you both are not alone when it comes to "thinking outside the box", i bent my first sides using a kettle and had built myself a steam chamber with side mold on top and it worked flawlessly. I agree with what you said that it's not because no one does it that it ain't good! Rock on!

Author:	Serge Poirier [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:32 am ]
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Author:	Sam Price [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:55 am ]
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] How long is the binding plyable?[/QUOTE] The binding, for me, is plyable for 5 minutes, enough time for me to attach it to the guitar, with AR glue already let settled for a minute. EDIT: another thought is that the contact with the steam on the rosewood actually blanched it: So that's when I wrapped the binding in foil Ebony is really stubborn though. I had a whole set of lovely ebony that just refused to bend the way I wanted it to. Remember, this is a needs-must technique and I am a total ametuer...my shop is small, and there are piles of wood everywhere. I am worried about the fire risks with a pipe and flame. I've got the kids to think about!! A steam burn on the hand is preferred to an all out fire... If I choose to go the pipe route this time, I will most likely go to the college I work at in my free time and use their blowtorches. More space, you see. Serge: YOU ROCK!!!! Hesh: YOU HESH!!!!Sam Price39027.7106018519

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